Israel vs Hamas (9 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

Yeah, IDF 'accidentally' takes out aid workers, aid gets suspended, more people in Gaza starve to death and so it is a win-win for the IDF

Karma will eventually have a long, painful conversation with the Israeli fascists.

 

[zztop]

World Central Kitchen founder José Andrés says Israel targeted staff in Gaza 'car by car'

World Central Kitchen founder José Andrés says Israel's deadly strike in Gaza on Monday was not a mistake.

www.bbc.com

In a separate interview with Israel's Channel 12 news, Mr Andrés said "it was really a direct attack on clearly marked vehicles whose movements were known by everybody at the IDF [Israel Defense Forces]".

 

[zztop]

He only won Wisconsin by 20k votes in 2020 election..
48,000 voted uninstructed, and another 17k voted for Dean

 

[Neworleansfan]

We need to stop supporting Israel. Didn’t start out that way but we are supporting the wrong side now.

 

[Lapaz]

World Central Kitchen founder José Andrés says Israel targeted staff in Gaza 'car by car'

World Central Kitchen founder José Andrés says Israel's deadly strike in Gaza on Monday was not a mistake.

www.bbc.com

In a separate interview with Israel's Channel 12 news, Mr Andrés said "it was really a direct attack on clearly marked vehicles whose movements were known by everybody at the IDF [Israel Defense Forces]".

Our ally is acting like a rogue state! They have punished Gaza enough! They need to use a scalpel to get Hamas, not the way they are executing the campaign. I wonder what their rules of engagement are? They’re obviously not cautious enough.

 

[MT15]

They are acting like Hamas now. Bibi has to go, next fall isn’t soon enough. This is what happens when you let religious zealots make policy and be part of government. It should be a warning to us.

 

[Lapaz]

They are acting like Hamas now. Bibi has to go, next fall isn’t soon enough. This is what happens when you let religious zealots make policy and be part of government. It should be a warning to us.

Bibi, like Trump, is a criminal. If Trump wins, the rest of the advanced countries of the world may start saying that we’re also a rogue nation. It goes to show that even democracies aren’t always virtuous. If a majority of the voters prefer fascism, as Germany did when they elected Hitler, then a democracy can become rogue.

 

[RobF]

Our ally is acting like a rogue state! They have punished Gaza enough! They need to use a scalpel to get Hamas, not the way they are executing the campaign. I wonder what their rules of engagement are? They’re obviously not cautious enough.

The rhetoric coming from some of their government was disturbing from the start, but the prevailing argument seemed to be that their rules of engagement wouldn't reflect that and would protect civilians.

But that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Their rules of engagement increasingly seem to be, "Do we think there might be someone who might be a terrorist nearby? No further questions, fire!"

Case in point with the strike on the WCK aid workers. They had three cars, clearly marked, travelling along a pre-approved route coordinated with the IDF. But reportedly their cars were targeted by drone strikes because of "erroneous suspicions that a terrorist was travelling with the convoy." When they have rules of engagement that appear to allow deliberate targeting of aid workers on that basis (incorrect in this instance, but even if not!), I think "not cautious enough" is putting it very mildly.

 

[RobF]

Update on that (rules of engagement, strike on WCK aid workers) (from the Guardian, here):

The Israeli military said on Friday that it has dismissed two officers and reprimanded three others for their roles in drone strikes in Gaza that killed seven aid workers on a food-delivery mission, saying they had mishandled critical information and violated the army’s rules of engagement.​

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...​

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According to what spokespeople said were the Israeli army’s rules, targets must be visually identified as threats for multiple reasons before they can be hit. But the investigation determined that a colonel had authorized the series of deadly drone strikes on the convoy based on one major’s observation — from grainy drone-camera footage — that someone in the convoy was armed. That observation turned out to be untrue, military officials said.​

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The army said the colonel and the major were dismissed, while three other officers were reprimanded. It said the results of its investigation were turned over to the military’s advocate general, who will decide whether the officers or anyone else involved in the killings should receive further punishment or be prosecuted.​

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Personally, I think if you have a colonel authorizing strikes based on that, that's representative of a systematic problem. Did the colonel know it was an aid workers' convoy? If not, why not? And how could a colonel ever think that was acceptable in the first place?

 

[RobF]

Further information (same link as before):

The investigation found two major areas of wrongdoing.​

​

It faulted officers for failing to read messages alerting troops that cars, not aid trucks, would carry workers from the charity away from the warehouse where aid was distributed. As a result, the cars that were targeted were misidentified as transporting militants.​

​

The army also faulted a major who identified the strike target and a colonel who approved the strike for acting with insufficient information.​

​

The army said the order was given after one of the passengers inside a car was identified as a gunman. It said troops became suspicious because a gunman had been seen on the roof of one of the delivery trucks on the way to the warehouse. The army showed reporters footage of the gunman firing his weapon while riding atop one of the trucks.​

​

After the aid was dropped off at a warehouse, an officer believed he had spotted a gunman in one of the cars. The passenger, it turned out, was not carrying a weapon — the military said its possible he was just carrying a bag.​

​

The army said it initially hit one car. As people scrambled away into a second car, it hit that vehicle as well. It did the same thing when survivors scrambled into a third car. Army officials claimed that drone operators could not see that the cars were marked with the words “World Central Kitchen” because it was nighttime.​

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The army could not say exactly where the communication about the convoy’s plans had broken down.​

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The army declined to answer questions about whether similar violations of rules of engagement have taken place during the war — in which Palestinians, aid workers and international rights groups have repeatedly accused the army of recklessly striking civilians.​

 

[MT15]

Further information (same link as before):

The investigation found two major areas of wrongdoing.​

​

It faulted officers for failing to read messages alerting troops that cars, not aid trucks, would carry workers from the charity away from the warehouse where aid was distributed. As a result, the cars that were targeted were misidentified as transporting militants.​

​

The army also faulted a major who identified the strike target and a colonel who approved the strike for acting with insufficient information.​

​

The army said the order was given after one of the passengers inside a car was identified as a gunman. It said troops became suspicious because a gunman had been seen on the roof of one of the delivery trucks on the way to the warehouse. The army showed reporters footage of the gunman firing his weapon while riding atop one of the trucks.​

​

After the aid was dropped off at a warehouse, an officer believed he had spotted a gunman in one of the cars. The passenger, it turned out, was not carrying a weapon — the military said its possible he was just carrying a bag.​

​

The army said it initially hit one car. As people scrambled away into a second car, it hit that vehicle as well. It did the same thing when survivors scrambled into a third car. Army officials claimed that drone operators could not see that the cars were marked with the words “World Central Kitchen” because it was nighttime.​

​

The army could not say exactly where the communication about the convoy’s plans had broken down.​

​

The army declined to answer questions about whether similar violations of rules of engagement have taken place during the war — in which Palestinians, aid workers and international rights groups have repeatedly accused the army of recklessly striking civilians.​

I do think it is clear that they are not following normal rules of engagement. Most people (me included) wanted to give Israel the benefit of the doubt - even though I knew Bibi was a bad actor. As I said, this should be a warning to us - we cannot let religious extremists get into power here. Our own religious extremists would perform no better than the religious extremists who are in power in Israel, Iran, or Hamas for that matter. We can think Biden hasn’t been forceful enough with Israel - but his opposition would be so much worse. Trump doesn’t care if he lets religious extremists take control of this country. As long as they praise him, he will let them do what they want. That much should be glaringly obvious to anyone. Unless we truly want to turn the US into a theocracy, we have to make sure Trump isn’t elected here. And the only true alternative is Biden.

 

[MT15]

Israel’s explanation that it was a “mistake” to target the aid workers is just trash. I don’t believe they are being honest.

This guy earned a follow from me today:

 

[Lapaz]

Israel’s explanation that it was a “mistake” to target the aid workers is just trash. I don’t believe they are being honest.

This guy earned a follow from me today:

That was Interesting. Also the fog of war argument doesn’t seem to apply in this war. I think that’s applicable when you’re fighting an adversary that is putting up a fight, and bullets are flying in all directions. In this war, Hamas is mostly hiding, which gives the IDF time to assess before shooting. Those world kitchen truck’s weren’t endangering anyone. One could make that argument if they were coming upon an asset, but generally that asset will call for assistance. This analogy perfectly exemplifies why ROE should require extra assessment prior to using lethal force.

 

[Heathen]

I think it’s also important to note that IOF has targeted aid trucks but also ambulances, medical centers, vehicles carrying reporters etc. throughout this conflict.

The World Kitchen incident was one of many that show Israel's narrative with regard to Gaza is largely one of terrorism -- not this careful, calculated 'targeting of Hamas' - which just seems to be the scapegoat for Israel to carry out its plans. A total of 224 aid workers have been reported to be killed by Israel since October 7th.

Unlike the killing of the WCK staff members, who were citizens of the U.S., Canada, Australia, Poland and the U.K., other fatal incidents that have involved mostly Palestinian aid workers have raised little outrage or notice from the Israeli or international governments.

In a review of documents, public statements and interviews, NBC News found a pattern of attacks on aid workers and humanitarian infrastructure in the months leading up to Monday’s attack. Those include two previous incidents involving WCK, the dropping of a 1,000-pound bomb near a building housing aid workers from the International Rescue Committee (IRC), and the bombing of the home of an aid worker for Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF).

UNRWA, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, has sustained more attacks than any other agency, resulting in the deaths of 179 of its staff since Oct. 7.

The IDF is supposed to protect aid workers. Aid agencies say the Israeli military has been attacking them for months. - NBC News

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[SaintForLife]

This is a huge blow to the 'rule-based international order' that the United States prizes so much... the Israelis behave like rogues, and the United States defends them at every turn.

This is not good for the United States."



And they believe that they can get away with it... The Americans will protect them, because the Americans always protect them."

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Is anyone surprised...?

Dying for a bag of flour: Videos and eyewitness accounts cast doubt on Israel’s timeline of deadly Gaza aid delivery | CNN

CNN’s analysis sheds new light on what happened in the early hours of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured while trying to get flour.

www.cnn.com

 

[Heathen]