Israel vs Hamas (5 Viewers)

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    GrandAdmiral

    GrandAdmiral

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    Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

    www.cnn.com

    Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

    Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.
    www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
     
    Heathen said:
    I think that the point is that if military funding is being used to continue to slaughter innocent people and illegally take land...
    Click to expand...
    And that point is addressed by putting conditions on the aid and funding provided to Israel.

    For instance, providing them with only defensive weapons like the Iron Dome. Making it clear that if they continue to do certain things, then they will lose some to all of the aid and funds.

    I'm not talking about what has or hasn't been done to date, what I'm saying is that someone can be supportive of providing aid and funding to Israel, while at the same time wanting US aid and funding to not be used to harm non-combative Palestinians or any other non-combative people.

    I'm one of those people. A lot of the funding and aid we send to Israel is put to good moral use protecting and helping non-combative Israelis. At the same time I also want the US to make that aid and funding conditional and used to put pressure on the Israeli government and military to treat non-combative Palestinians and all other non-combative people in a humane way.

    It's not the morally black or white, all or nothing, binary issue that some keep insisting that it is.

    The finger pointing is hypocritical. There isn't a person living in the US that doesn't have blood on their hands. There isn't a person living on this planet that doesn't have blood on their hands. We all, whether we know it or not, choose to benefit from things that cause the suffering and death of other non-combative people.

    That is unacceptable, we can change it, and I think it needs to be changed. However, trying to take a false moral high ground over others is unjustified and counterproductive. It's a symptom and tactic of the disease of tribalism and tribalism is why what's happening in Ukraine, Israel, Africa, Europe, Asia, North America, South America and Australia keeps happening.

    The solution to the plague of tribalism is not more tribalism.
     
    Last edited:
    LA - L.A. said:
    And that point is addressed by putting conditions on the aid and funding provided to Israel.

    For instance, providing them with only defensive weapons like the Iron Dome. Making it clear that if they continue to do certain things, then they will lose some to all of the aid and funds.

    I'm not talking about what has or hasn't been done to date, what I'm saying is that someone can be supportive of providing aid and funding to Israel, while at the same time wanting US aid and funding to not be used to harm non-combative Palestinians or any other non-combative people.

    I'm one of those people. A lot of the funding and aid we send to Israel is put to good moral use protecting and helping non-combative Israelis. At the same time I also want the US to make that aid and funding conditional and used to put pressure on the Israeli government and military to treat non-combative Palestinians and all other non-combative people in a humane way.
    Click to expand...

    I think we're saying much of the same thing. I don't see much of anything here I don't agree with.

    I will say a caveat is that I don't agree with the amount of funding we send to Israel and the level to which they influence our government's spending and policy decisions (IE AIPAC), but that's a different subject..

    LA - L.A. said:
    It's not the morally black or white, all or nothing, binary issue that some keep insisting that it is.

    The finger pointing is hypocritical. There isn't a person living in the US that doesn't have blood on their hands. There isn't a person living on this planet that doesn't have blood on their hands. We all, whether we know it or not, choose to benefit from things that cause the suffering and death of other non-combative people.
    Click to expand...

    I'm not sure where it was stated otherwise.

    LA - L.A. said:
    That is unacceptable, we can change it, and I think it needs to be changed. However, trying to take a false moral high ground over others is unjustified and counterproductive. It's a symptom and tactic of the disease of tribalism and tribalism is why what's happening in Ukraine, Israel, Africa, Europe, Asia, North America, South America and Australia keeps happening.

    The solution to the plague of tribalism is not more tribalism.
    Click to expand...

    I guess I don't know what you're getting at with saying that some people are trying to create this 'false moral high ground over others'. That certainly has never been my intention, nor do I think it's the intention of anyone who sees what's happening in Gaza and is disgusted by it.

    Maybe where the confusion lies is in the wording of what one disagrees with being misunderstood..?..I'm just spitballing. I think that the US doing things like expediting funding congressionally to a country committing a genocide during that event is inherently a bad thing - and in this situation I'm not sure how it's not more of a bad than a good thing. People are going to disagree very strongly with our tax dollars being used for these purposes, especially so openly and for such a long period of time. That's just the reality.

    But of course these things aren't simply black or white or moral or immoral in a vacuum. No where did I say cut off funding to Israel completely. But I think we have to be strategic, and doing what was done above - for example, in bypassing Congress to send more military aid to Israel during that specific point in time - is not something that makes any sense if caring mostly about innocent lives in Gaza was in the cards, just my opinion. And that's one example of where an objection on moral grounds could be argued.

    Tribalism is a pretty core part of our biology, but I'd agree that being cognizant of it and working to lessen it is a great first step. Think it will be a sort of never ending goal, but worth it.
     
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    www.theguardian.com

    Netanyahu faces huge challenge after court ruling on military exemption

    Strain on coalition grows after Israeli supreme court orders end to subsidies for ultra-Orthodox men who avoid conscription
    www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

    The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is facing one of the most serious threats yet to his coalition government after the country’s supreme court ordered an end to government subsidies from Monday for many ultra-Orthodox men who do not serve in the army.
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    The two ultra-Orthodox parties in Netanyahu’s religious-nationalist coalition, United Torah Judaism and Shas, denounced the ruling as a “mark of Cain”. Aryeh Deri, the head of Shas, called the court’s decision “unprecedented bullying of Torah students in the Jewish state”.
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    If the ultra-Orthodox parties leave the government, the country would be forced into new elections, and Netanyahu is trailing significantly in the polls.
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    And the coup de grace....LOL.
    Last Saturday, Israel’s Sephardi chief rabbi, Yitzhak Yosef, said Haredim would leave Israel en masse if their exemption from compulsory service was not renewed.
    Click to expand...
     
    This is still about Hamas right...?

    1711760274270.png
     
    "In response to the killings, World Central Kitchen suspended its operations delivering vital food aid in Gaza" so... Mission accomplished
    www.cbsnews.com

    7 World Central Kitchen aid workers killed by Israeli airstrike in Gaza

    "Unfortunately, in the last day there was a tragic case of our forces unintentionally hitting innocent people in the Gaza Strip," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.
    www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
     
    zztop said:
    "In response to the killings, World Central Kitchen suspended its operations delivering vital food aid in Gaza" so... Mission accomplished
    www.cbsnews.com

    7 World Central Kitchen aid workers killed by Israeli airstrike in Gaza

    "Unfortunately, in the last day there was a tragic case of our forces unintentionally hitting innocent people in the Gaza Strip," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.
    www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
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    Aid workers and supplies have been hit way too often with precision weapons for me to believe it's honestly "unintentional."

    The Israeli civilian that is considered the mother of the settlement movement has been organizing protesters to block aid from getting into Gaza. They literally have screamed "not a loaf of bread for any of them." The ruling party of Israel represents those Israelis.
     

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