Israel vs Hamas (5 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[UriUT]

And if the US ends an alliance with Israel, Isreal will enter an alliance with Putin's Russia, who Netanyahu has been politically flirting with since Russia launched it's full invasion of Ukraine. That signaled to me that Isreal's ruling government and military were preparing to go full on into forcing the Palestinians out of all of the areas Israel occupies. The ruling Isreali government has been following the same path that the Nazis did in Germany. They have been dismantling what democracy there was in the Israeli apartheid and ramping up their anti-Palestenian rhetoric.

The situation in Gaza is already a global conflict, it's just some countries haven't opened fire, yet. I think Biden is also trying to keep more countries from shooting at each other. I think Putin is trying to make the opposite happen. Now that US aid is flowing to Ukraine again, Putin needs a full on multinational shooting war in the middle east to give him any chance of achieving his goals with Ukraine and the Baltic states.

Yeah, biden's #1 goal is to prevent this conflict to spread, which is why he sent 2 carrier groups and nukes to the middle east.

I don't know about the rest, and I'm sure the fear is that israel will turn to China or Russia. We ve warned Israel about china's encroachment to Israel's tech before.

 

[Incumbent]

The accusation that outside forces (agitators) was also used during the Civil rights movement. Someone on threads posted a nytimes article on the Columbia protest next to an article written during the Civil rights movement echoed the exact same theme. And I wouldn't even know about the Columbia protest had it not for an Israeli visiting professor denouncing Columbia University for locking him out after he confronted the protestors.

I think the evidence of the outside agitator is more convincing when reports are surfacing that many of the people being arrested are unaffiliated with the universities where they are protesting.

This can suggest valid concerns:

Students are mostly engaged in peaceful protesting but some are being manipulated into taking things too far.

There is potentially a coordinated off-campus movement(s), whose backing and motives might not be clear, taking advantage of peaceful protesting.

 

[Heathen]

Violence of any kind unless, IMO, in self defense is not acceptable.

I think it’s also worth noting that Zionist agitators have incited violence at many universities in counterprotest.

Most notably UCLA where police were accused of “standing back” as the former attacked protestors with rocks, batteries, bats, etc leading to many injuries

UCLA clashes: Police criticised for 'delayed' response to violence

It took hours to bring the situation under control, as pro-Israeli assailants broke into a pro-Palestinian camp.

www.bbc.com

 

[UriUT]

I think the evidence of the outside agitator is more convincing when reports are surfacing that many of the people being arrested are unaffiliated with the universities where they are protesting.

This can suggest valid concerns:

Students are mostly engaged in peaceful protesting but some are being manipulated into taking things too far.

There is potentially a coordinated off-campus movement, whose backing and motives might not be clear, taking advantage of peaceful protesting.

Sure the first may be valid, particularly with the building occupation. It takes away from the reason for the protest. But don't you think that the 2nd is to discredit the protest?

 

[Incumbent]

Violence of any kind unless, IMO, in self defense is not acceptable.

I think it’s also worth noting that Zionist agitators have incited violence at many universities in counterprotest.

Most notably UCLA where police were accused of “standing back” as the former attacked protestors with rocks, batteries, bats, etc leading to many injuries

UCLA clashes: Police criticised for 'delayed' response to violence

It took hours to bring the situation under control, as pro-Israeli assailants broke into a pro-Palestinian camp.

www.bbc.com

Raising the same questions: Who are they and what are their motives?

 

[Incumbent]

But don't you think that the 2nd is to discredit the protest?

Could be. Or to manipulate people and sway public sentiment for ulterior motives.

 

[UriUT]

Could be. Or to manipulate people and sway public sentiment for ulterior motives.

That is the point of the protest is it not? To manipulate and sway sentiment for gazans? More gently, to bring attention to how draconian Israel's actions are? After all, aipac and the adl have manipulated the American consciousness for who knows how long in favor of israel. It's one thing to see bias. But we are taught to understand and separate bias in our opinion of an argument. Here, I don't understand what you are getting at. Did the protestors change their stance (to help innocent gazans)?

 

[DaveXA]

What I find troubling in your comment is the idea that calling what the Israeli government and military are doing to Palestinians genocide somehow dilutes the meaning of the word.

What are your personal thresholds that have to be met to label something as genocide without diluting the meaning of genocide?

Israel is legally committing genocide, as is Hamas. They should both be stopped and held accountable. That's all I'm saying.

Some are definitely trying to exploit what is happening, but I don't understand how you see people being manipulated into seeing it as genocide.

I've seen it as the apartheid genocide that it around 20 years ago after listening to Noam Chomsky and others factually illustrate how what Isreal has been doing to Palestinians is far worse than what South Africa did to it's black skinned citizens. That's also how I learned that the massive Israeli propaganda and lobbying efforts are the reason the US and most of the world forced South Africa to stop, while enabling Israel to continue.

The world hasn't just sat by silently while Israel has done for decades what it is still doing to the Palestinians, the world enabled Israel until very recently. Biden is trying to use soft power to minimize the suffering and death inflicted on the in Gaza. I understand why.

It's a big deal that Biden has the US military building a port of entry for aid into Gaza. He knows that the Israeli's won't attack aid going to the Palestianians with US soldiers in the vicinity. I expect that he'll also have US soliders moving through the supply routes to give more protection. I think, maybe hope more than think, that Biden will use the supplying of aid to the people of Gaza by US troops as a way to do a soft peace keeping force.

The hard liners in Israel know that they won't get away with an "oops, my bad" if they injure a single US soldier. They also know they can't get away with any false flags operations either. Where there are US troops with people of Gaza, there are people in Gaza safe from the Israeli military's indiscriminate murder.

I'm not convinced Israel wouldn't target an area with US soldiers. It would be a dumb move, but they're not above running false flag ops or even openly targeting Hamas operatives to try and pin blame on Palestinians or Hamas for the loss of a soldier or several. This situation is fraught with risks all the way around and just because US soldiers are on the ground assisting Gazans doesn't make them remotely safe.

As for the genocide thing, I'll just say that if what Israel and Hamas are doing is defined as genocide, then pretty much every major country has willfully participated in some form of genocide. And that's why there's a sense that it's diluted.

That said, whether one thinks it's genocide or not, it's a forked up situation any way you look at it. Both Hamas and Israel are to blame for getting to where we are now. It's going to take both compromising and being willing to find a way to coexist as neighbors, in a two state solution that allows the Palestinians sovereignty and allow Israel security.

It can be done, but they both have to want the hostilities to stop.

 

[Incumbent]

That is the point of the protest is it not? To manipulate and sway sentiment for gazans? More gently, to bring attention to how draconian Israel's actions are? After all, aipac and the adl have manipulated the American consciousness for who knows how long in favor of israel. It's one thing to see bias. But we are taught to understand and separate bias in our opinion of an argument. Here, I don't understand what you are getting at. Did the protestors change their stance (to help innocent gazans)?

We are looking at this from different angles, perhaps.

I am not doubting the sincerity and compassion of many people involved. I am concerned that outside forces are using these protests for their own gains. Hence, the arrest statistics being reported.

I said “ulterior” motives in an effort to make that distinction.

 

[UriUT]

We are looking at this from different angles, perhaps.

I am not doubting the sincerity and compassion of many people involved. I am concerned that outside forces are using these protests for their own gains. Hence, the arrest statistics being reported.

I said “ulterior” motives in an effort to make that distinction.

So my point is, why does it matter who is protesting? We had a protest when I was at UT for more asian studies. Does it have to be asian students demanding that?

The clear mission for those students protesting now is for ut to divest and bring attention to gaza. Unless someone comes in and changes their message or get them to act violently, why does it matter?

Also, is there an ulterior motives for Abbott to immediately label those protestors antisemetic and violent as soon as they gather?

 

[MT15]

Violence of any kind unless, IMO, in self defense is not acceptable.

I think it’s also worth noting that Zionist agitators have incited violence at many universities in counterprotest.

Most notably UCLA where police were accused of “standing back” as the former attacked protestors with rocks, batteries, bats, etc leading to many injuries

UCLA clashes: Police criticised for 'delayed' response to violence

It took hours to bring the situation under control, as pro-Israeli assailants broke into a pro-Palestinian camp.

www.bbc.com

Whenever people mask their identities, we should be careful of assigning an identity to them. This applies to both the pro-Palestinian protestors and the anti-protestor group who attacked them. We don’t know who they were, do we? It wouldn’t surprise me to find out this group was possibly a right wing or anarchist group, and I don’t eliminate the possibility of a political operation to sow violence.

 

[DaveXA]

So my point is, why does it matter who is protesting? We had a protest when I was at UT for more asian studies. Does it have to be asian students demanding that?

As a matter of principle, it doesn't matter. There are rules about non-students protesting on campus though.

The clear mission for those students protesting now is for ut to divest and bring attention to gaza. Unless someone comes in and changes their message or get them to act violently, why does it matter?

Allegedly, there are non-students coming on these campuses to try and take advantage of the situation. It happens at a lot of protests for all kinds of causes. Not particularly unique here, although the potential for violence is higher with the stakes being what they are.

Also, is there an ulterior motives for Abbott to immediately label those protestors antisemetic and violent as soon as they gather?

Absolutely. I expect nothing less from that idiot.

 

[MT15]

Also, is there an ulterior motives for Abbott to immediately label those protestors antisemetic and violent as soon as they gather?

Absolutely. It will sow division within the Democratic Party and help elect Trump. Who will enable any horrible thing Israel wants to do and immediately reinstate his Muslim ban. He said so last night.

The clear mission for those students protesting now is for ut to divest and bring attention to gaza. Unless someone comes in and changes their message or get them to act violently, why does it matter?

We are seeing this happen in various locations. It’s been a gradual shift, but we are seeing it. It has been morphing away from divestment and a cease fire and more to support for Hamas. There has been a definite escalation in some areas. When the majority of people arrested are not students or affiliated with the university, it should at least raise questions about who are these people and what is their goal?

 

[MT15]

We had a protest when I was at UT for more asian studies. Does it have to be asian students demanding that?

No, but if people not affiliated with the university at all came in and escalated, wouldn’t you question their motives?

 

[Incumbent]

So my point is, why does it matter who is protesting? We had a protest when I was at UT for more asian studies. Does it have to be asian students demanding that?

The clear mission for those students protesting now is for ut to divest and bring attention to gaza. Unless someone comes in and changes their message or get them to act violently, why does it matter?

It matters if the violence and chaos are intentional and not just consequential. Do you think that’s possible? You posted about the allegations of “outside agitators” and I responded to that with the evidence in the form or arrest statistics.

Full disclosure, I see all of this from the perspective that begins with the belief that Hamas was goaded into its terror attack on Israel, relying on the predictability of a heavy-handed response from Netanyahu. I believe it’s all part of a destabilization campaign meant - intentionally - to influence global politics. The protests, counter protests, administrative decisions, police turnout; it’s all predictable.

 

[UriUT]

So what I'm seeing is finding technical reasons or shadowy motives to move the conversation away from what is the point of all these protests. The failure of the Columbia protest is that the messaging became about them and eventually about their right to protest. I see it written in the media and I see it on threads. They were discredited with accusations of antisemitism. Lots and lots on threat. Even hamas sympathizers. Then I see agitator thrown out.

Yall keep bringing up outside forces and not consider the other forces working against these protestors and the Palestinians.

 

[DaveXA]

So what I'm seeing is finding technical reasons or shadowy motives to move the conversation away from what is the point of all these protests. The failure of the Columbia protest is that the messaging became about them and eventually about their right to protest. I see it written in the media and I see it on threads. They were discredited with accusations of antisemitism. Lots and lots on threat. Even hamas sympathizers. Then I see agitator thrown out.

Yall keep bringing up outside forces and not consider the other forces working against these protestors and the Palestinians.

I disagree. I think we're informed enough here to understand why the protests are happening, and are a legitimate expression of the frustration at what's happening to Palestinians in Gaza as well as the brutality of the attacks on them by Israel.

That being understood, the violence on campuses I attribute to outside agitation that has a political agenda and isn't representative of those protesting the Palestinian suffering in Gaza, which should be protested.

 

[UriUT]

It matters if the violence and chaos are intentional and not just consequential. Do you think that’s possible? You posted about the allegations of “outside agitators” and I responded to that with the evidence in the form or arrest statistics.

Full disclosure, I see all of this from the perspective that begins with the belief that Hamas was goaded into its terror attack on Israel, relying on the predictability of a heavy-handed response from Netanyahu. I believe it’s all part of a destabilization campaign meant - intentionally - to influence global politics. The protests, counter protests, administrative decisions, police turnout; it’s all predictable.

So again, just like my point in bringing Abbotts action up. It appears that the immediate reaction is to label protestors as violent beforehand. It's to discredit them. The columbia protest was non violent before it escalated to the point that the Administration gave them an ultimatum. How were they violent before that?